Planning Commission Minutes

CITY OF VICTORIA
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
MAY 16, 2006

MINUTES

Pursuant to due posted and mailed notice thereof, the Victoria Planning Commission met on May 16, 2006, at 7951 Rose in the Council Chambers.

Chair Simanton opened the meeting at 7:00 p.m.

Members Present: Chair, Gordy Simanton; Commissioners James Donadio III, William Mead VI, and Tom Vogt.

Members Absent: Commissioner Bud Hiivala.

Others Present: Eric Zweber, City Planner; Mark Kaltsas, MK Land Corporation; and Tanya Schmieg, Recording Secretary.

A. Adopt Agenda

A motion was made by Mead, seconded by Vogt, to adopt the agenda as presented. Vote: 4 Ayes, 0 Nays. Motion Carried.
 

#2 APPROVAL OF MINUTES:

A. Minutes of May 2, 2006, Planning Commission Meeting.

A motion was made by Simanton, seconded by Donadio, to approve the Minutes as presented. Vote: 4 Ayes, 0 Nays. Motion carried.

B. Review Minutes from April 13 and April 27, 2006, City Council Meeting.

The above minutes were reviewed.

C. Review Minutes from April 24, 2006 City Council Workshop

The above minutes were reviewed.
 

Chair Simanton reviewed the process that would be followed tonight during the public hearings.

1. Agenda Statement No. 06-15
2. Exhibits

Mr. Zweber stated that Mavis Hartman is requesting Preliminary Plat Approval to reconfigure her property, Donovan and Pamela Loucks property. Mavis Hartman owns the property of 1021 74^th Street, which is actually two tax parcels due to a Minor Subdivision approved in 2004, and Outlot A of Hartman Addition Plat 2, for a total three parcels total but only one buildable lot. Paul Hartman owns Outlot A of the Hartman second addition. The Loucks own Lot 1 and Outlot B of Hartman second addition. Roger Hartman owns what would become Lot 2, which currently has a garage on it and has a building permit to be expanded into a house. In order to get that to meet standards previously there was a minor subdivision that was approved. This property is within 100 feet of Schutz Lake. The previous minor subdivision was done to allow that lot to be one acre in size. While the two are attached legally they are two separate parcels.

Mr. Zweber showed a map with the boundary lines to show what is being requested. There are five parcels which are two buildable lots and two outlots. The request is to move the lot line to the northern boundary of the old 74^th Street right-of-way, which is now a private drive. This would also give the Loucks more of a side yard. This would also split the wetland island.

Mr. Zweber reviewed the site data provided in the packet. They do meet all the size and dimensional standards.

Mr. Zweber stated there is a house that the Loucks live in and there is a house currently being constructed for Roger Hartman. Chair Simanton asked if that is the one that has the garage. Mr. Zweber said yes, it is the garage that is having an addition put on to it to turn it into a house. Chair Simanton asked for clarification if the Loucks have a house on Block 1. Mr. Zweber said they are both Lot 1, Block 1 and there is a home being constructed on Lot 2. Mr. Zweber stated there are no buildable lots being created, it is maxed out. The Loucks own Outlot B. Mr. Zweber noted that it returns some land to the tax base as buildable land. Chair Simanton said that Outlot B will go away and just become Lot 1. Chair Simanton said he thought there was already a home on Lot 2. Mr. Zweber said the garage always existed, but it was never approved as a house. Chair Simanton asked if they need this in order to build that house. Mr. Zweber responded no. Outlot A will continue to exist, but will be decreased in size. Chair Simanton asked if Outlot B is buildable. Mr. Zweber said no, it is under the one acre in size as well as wetland and wetland setbacks would make it un-buildable as well.

Mr. Zweber noted that it meets the requirements of preliminary plat. There would still be tax parcels that exist even thought they may not be legally buildable. Mr. Zweber said it makes it hard to implement in the future and this cleans up this subdivision.

Commissioner Vogt asked where Lot 2 is. Mr. Zweber showed where it is and said it goes up to the northern edge of the 74^th Street right-of-way and then goes east and then to the northeast. Commissioner Vogt asked who owns the old Lot 2. Mr. Zweber said Mavis still owns that and it is currently on the market for sale. That is considered its own buildable lot that also has a house on it.

Chair Simanton opened the Public Hearing at 7:15 p.m.

Chair Simanton closed the Public Hearing at 7:15 p.m.

Chair Simanton asked if both of the new lots have lake access. Mr. Zweber said the Loucks have existing access. He said there is a deeded access, but they don’t review deeds.

A motion was made by Simanton, seconded by Vogt, to approve the request by Mavis Hartman for Preliminary Plat Approval of a Two Lot and One Outlot Subdivision of the property at 1021 74^th Street and 1060 74^th Street. Vote: 4 Ayes, 0 Nays. Motion carried.

Mr. Zweber stated a week from Thursday this will be in front of the City Council. This will not be a public hearing.
 

A. Downtown Parking and Master Plan.

1. Agenda Statement No. 06-16
2. Exhibits

Mr. Kaltsas stated this went to the City Council last Thursday. This was supposed to be a workshop, so the City Council actually got this before the Planning Commission got it. The Planning Commission has talked through several different scenarios. He put together a parking analysis and plan. Mr. Kaltsas said the City Council didn’t follow all those steps and were not sure what was going on with the plan. They are looking for recommendations for the Downtown Plan.

Mr. Kaltsas stated he wants to talk about the big pieces and where the Planning Commission is on those. He said the first thing they did is they knew they had a developer coming in that would close off Steiger Lake Lane. They took Ms. Meuwissen’s information into account when they started laying out this plan. They looked at how her plan would fit together with this plan. One of the items would be closing off Steiger Lake Lane in order to accommodate the development. Mr. Kaltsas said they looked at fixed points. Ms. Meuwissen’s project being a fixed point and the intersection of County Road 11 and Victoria Drive is a fixed point. When they did the first phase of this project they did million and a half dollar bridge. This fixed where Steiger Lake Lane comes into Victoria Drive. This becomes a fixed point because the horizontal alignment of the whole road is something that is set. Mr. Kaltsas said he looked at other fixed points. The Clock Tower Building and Tower Boulevard is a fixed point. The location of the bank and the Hartman building behind the bank are also fixed points. This starts to box when can and can’t be done as far as road alignment goes and as far as redevelopment opportunity goes.

Mr. Kaltsas said they started to look at the design fixed points next. They looked at trying to identify a truck route thru downtown. He provided a diagram that showed an auto turn. They looked at a couple of variations and wanted to get most of the traffic to the stoplights on Main Street. When you look at the auto turn movements that show a truck the current layout accommodates a truck by going on Steiger Lake Lane. By taking that out it has to be accommodated at a different intersection. That intersection would be Tower Boulevard. They would have to redo some curb and sidewalk to accommodate this. Mr. Kaltsas stated the engineers show that street needs to be widen to 34 feet. Chair Simanton asked what it is now. Mr. Kaltsas said it is 27 feet. This would be by the creamery and would not be an issue. Mr. Kaltsas said he is not convinced that the road needs to be 34 feet. The turning radius needs to be enlarged. Mr. Kaltsas showed that the Ganon Building becomes somewhat in the way. When they began this they knew it was going to be tight. They set up Tower Boulevard to have a slight offset right at the alley, which meant there was no parking up against that building. It would be a substandard condition. Mr. Kaltsas said it would be very difficult and not a very well designed plan to be able to get around that building. It is possible that they could stay and that is something they will have to keep working on.

Mr. Kaltsas stated he tried to show how much square footage the City of Victoria could accommodate with surface level parking in this plan. This doesn’t include that a private developer would put in underground parking. Those things can be worked into a plan. Mr. Kaltsas said one of the comments from the City Council was they looked at the plan and said there was a lot of parking and it looked like a suburban strip mall. Mr. Kaltsas said he was trying to show as much parking as he could. Simanton said he thought the same and asked if he was trying to demonstrate the parking for the buildings that are currently here. Mr. Kaltsas said no, he took the plan with all the fixed points and all the other components of a plan. When the road alignment was all set they went in and put parking on street and off street. He did a parking analysis to understand Ms. Meuwissen’s needs are going to be. Chair Simanton asked if that was done based on her not having parking underneath as before. Mr. Kaltsas said correct. He went through the existing buildings he thought would remain in town and then tried to figure out how much square footage of building can be accommodated with the remaining parking. Chair Simanton said this is taking what currently exists right now and the assumption that Ms. Meuwissen’s property would not have any parking at all. Mr. Kaltsas said no, it does, but he was about fifty spaces short with having just surface parking and including Ms. Meuwissen’s development. Ms. Meuwissen is proposing in her plan right now a fifty space public parking garage to service all the tenants. This would be underground for the Creamery and the Victoria House. That would be the net difference. Commissioner Vogt said the assumption is that all the private is covered underground in the structures. Mr. Kaltsas said correct. Commissioner Vogt said then there is an additional fifty. Mr. Kaltsas stated he did his own analysis and then hired someone else to do it. The study shows that the total parking required for this plan based on the City of Victoria ordinance is 655 and what they recommend based on current trends is 451, which is a significant difference. Mr. Zweber classified the existing ordinance as a suburban model. Mr. Kaltsas said that most cities have parking ordinances that are very old. This study takes into a count the information the shared methodology used from the 2005 data and this is for a suburban urban type development. Mr. Kaltsas said he thinks these numbers are good. One other piece of the shared methodology is they could do a shared parking analysis. This would be for specific uses in the downtown and look at what are the shared possibilities of those units. An example would be a movie theatre having the ability to share parking. Restaurants can also have shared parking. He thinks in this plan if you get a specific shared parking analysis it could probably be reduced by another twenty to thirty parking spaces. They would have to look at the peak times and he is not doing that. These are good proposed numbers and they are reasonable.

Mr. Kaltsas referred to table 1 the comparative parking requirements – Victoria zoning ordinance and shared parking methodology. Mr. Kaltsas said he thought this was included in the packet and will have to allow time to review this four-page study. Commissioner Vogt said that one of the things that strikes him is the ordinance 655, so the 200 is a 30% deviation and that is huge. Mr. Kaltsas said the easiest way to explain the difference is the ordinance is based on gross square footage. The shared parking methodology uses gross leasable square footage areas and does not look at common areas, entrances, stairwells, bathrooms, things of that nature that are not leasable elements of a building. If you look at that it is actually a reduction of square footage of about 30%. They use 80-85% as numbers of the gross square footage. Commissioner Mead referred to Floyd’s parking and how much of that building is usable by customers. Mr. Kaltsas referred back to the table and said if you ask anyone about the retail parking being at 5.55 spaces per 1,000 sq. ft. they would say that is way too many. He noted this is a good evaluation.

Mr. Kaltsas said another thing he would like to address is the parking ramp. Mr. Zweber asked him to describe the buildings that are not there. They are two stories with no underground parking. Mr. Kaltsas said this is as generic as possible to come up with a plan that allows developers to have creativity as to what gets developed in the downtown. He is trying to lay out the other redevelopment opportunities. Mr. Kaltsas said that 60 feet wide is the proposed depth of the building and that is standard for retail. He took that by 120 to give 720 square feet. He showed the buildings on the map. Mr. Zweber stated this isn’t trying to plan for the developers that come in but gives the flexibility for two story buildings and if you they want to go to a three story they need to provide underground parking.

Mr. Kaltsas said there would be four new buildings and possibly three restaurants with Ms. Meuwissen’s development. He said it is important not to think of it as four buildings, but to think of it as 60,000 square feet. The square footage is what it is really tied to, not if it is a one or two story and that is from a parking standpoint. Commissioner Vogt asked if the two story buildings take into account the staircase. Mr. Kaltsas said that is gross. He noted that 15,000 square feet can start to support the elevator.

Mr. Kaltsas said he wants to talk about the parking garage, town square and the overall design. These are the things that need to be brought back to the City Council. They don’t know what all this cost, but it should not be planned based on whether or not the City can pay for it today or not. Chair Simanton said he agrees.

Mr. Kaltsas said they already have an idea of what Ms. Meuwissen’s project would generate in tax increment.

Mr. Kaltsas said the town square is one of the biggest elements. When they talked about the park master plan the City Council adopted the idea of doing a town square. Mr. Kaltsas showed the location of the town square. He said with the idea of Ms. Meuwissen’s project being in the mix it starts to show what land is available. He referred to the 1997 plan of building it on the lake. In that plan they are utilizing almost the entire creamery lot for part of a park. He noted the City doesn’t own that. He also pointed out the railroad right-of-way, but the City doesn’t own any of that land and in order for them to do that they would be building within a prescriptive easement, which is a big risk.

Mr. Kaltsas said another piece is access. He stated the way the proposal is made in the 1997 plan and with Ms. Meuwissen’s plan there is no street access to that public plaza. He noted that he doesn’t know of any pedestrian malls in the Country that are successful without a public road. Chair Simanton asked for clarification of having a park on the other side of Ms. Meuwissen’s development towards the lake is a mistake. Mr. Kaltsas said he doesn’t know if it would be a mistake.

Chair Simanton asked about the other options. Mr. Kaltsas said an option would be to buy Ms. Meuwissen’s piece and put the park so it connects to the lake right in the middle. The other idea would be to put a park more central to the downtown and then surround it by buildings and use that as a sucking point. Mr. Kaltsas said that is the concept that is presented in this plan. Chair Simanton asked if that was presented to the City Council. Mr. Kaltsas said yes and he only got one comment back saying they would rather see the Ganon building stay there. He said he is trying to set up a town square that has public road access that becomes an attraction point. Commissioner Mead asked if there is a corridor that could come off directly down to Steiger Lake. Mr. Kaltsas said that is what Ms. Meuwissen is showing in her plan and would work with her not to close off the lake completely. They are talking about creating the corridors thru the buildings that would become heavily landscaped. This park would be the entrance way into the other public space. This provides the City a larger public space that they could own and have parking. Commissioner Vogt asked who owns that land. Mr. Kaltsas showed the area and said there is an easement for a road. He noted the railroad owns that land. He showed all of the right-of-way they own.

Commissioner Vogt stated having a park in the middle of the City makes sense, but the thing that is disturbing him is it is not very big. Chair Simanton said he agrees. Commissioner Vogt said it is too small if you want to use it and have a lot of public participation and the crowds would overflow. Chair Simanton asked how big it is now. Mr. Kaltsas said it is about 130x100. Mr. Kaltsas stated he has done a lot of studies with town squares and 80x120 is a really good number. He said if you get too big, people will tend not to walk thru that space. He referred to Chaska and said that space is too big and is not pedestrian friendly. Mr. Zweber mentioned doing Volksfest in the park and you could shut off the side roads and that would be where the vendors would be. Commissioner Mead said the two side streets were designed just as parking, not thru roads. Mr. Zweber said they are still roads, but they could be closed and still have functions. Mr. Kaltsas said when you look at that space then and have a fair it is about 200x200 after closing off the square. Commissioner Vogt asked where the 200 cars would go. Mr. Zweber said they would have to go to Harman’s lot or as they did for Volksfest have a shuttle from Lions Park or the Field House. Chair Simanton noted another thing with the Chaska City Park is there are no walkways thru the park.

Chair Simanton pointed out that they do all this statistical numbers for parking to push it to the worst case scenario and it is not being done with this town square. He would question whether that size is proper and referred to the commons area in Excelsior being too small today. He encourages it to be looked at again to make it larger. Chair Simanton said to look at bringing that trail system in as a gateway there shouldn’t be little areas running down. There should be a vista from the town square out to the lake without the landscaped trails that go in between Ms. Meuwissen’s buildings. Chair Simanton said she should build her buildings around that.

Commissioner Vogt asked if there is a way to pick up additional parking for events in the land swap area on the hill. Mr. Zweber said it is probably about a quarter mile wide. Commissioner Vogt suggested having some sort of parking lot to shuttle them on a bus by the land swap area. Commissioner Vogt said one thing that wasn’t in this is how the land swap area would be used and integrated with this. Chair Simanton said if you build that right, size it right and build it pedestrian friendly by having retail around it and vistas is exactly the right thing to do. This area should also be a wireless hotspot. He said that this needs to be the focal point and then Ms. Meuwissen can design around that.

Commissioner Vogt said it should be made about 30-50% bigger and then you would have to sacrifice something related to one of the three buildings. Commissioner Mead stated if you take away the parking spaces you are already losing 22 spaces around the town square. Mr. Kaltsas said those spaces are the first to be filled by retail customers. The Commission likes the idea with a bigger corridor going to the lake. Mr. Kaltsas said he agrees there needs to be a vista to look thru to the lake. Chair Simanton mentioned having fireworks. He said it just opens it up and Ms. Meuwissen may have to re-orientate the buildings. Commissioner Vogt said this is real exciting.

Chair Simanton talked about the parking and referred to the NFC building. At that building you come in at the top level and there is no ramp. He thinks there are things that could be done with a double decker parking space. He also mentioned Rose Street and retail should be there instead of parking. Chair Simanton said he would like to encourage Mr. Kaltsas to look at other areas to put double deckers in to take advantage of having more open space or retail. Mr. Kaltsas talked about the area behind Main Street. Chair Simanton mentioned the houses that are blocked in and there is not much that can be done with those and his preference would be to look at parking going in that direction. Mr. Kaltsas pointed out the proximity of the parking to serve the middle is critical and you don’t want to get too far from the core. Commissioner Donadio talked about putting more parking at the building with retail or office area. Chair Simanton said to look at where the activity is coming from. He said to look at how to support the area and then look at what parking is there and move west from there.

Commissioner Vogt asked about the area with the apartments. Mr. Kaltsas said he doesn’t think they are valuable but if you start designing them out it is a huge number. He said they would not be able to persuade them to push out. It would probably take a private person to come in. He does see that becoming residential.

Mr. Kaltsas talked about the parking garage. He showed the module. The module is 60x124. The ideal minimum is 124x175 and it yields 71 spaces on an upper floor and with the ramp you will lose about 20 of those spaces. He said you could get a ramp below by putting a building on top and pick up about 50 parking spaces. Mr. Kaltsas showed the block that would be good for a ramp. He thinks ramps in Victoria would service office and condo areas, but not the retail. He has heard that from developers and retailers in town. He said he doesn’t think the City Council buys that. Chair Simanton stated he doesn’t buy that either. He referred to Hopkins and when you drive down the street and there is no parking the ramp is there. A ramp is quick and you know you can get in there. Mr. Kaltsas said the Commission does fell there is a place for a ramp. Commissioner Vogt said the phobia about ramps is unfounded. Commissioner Mead stated if you get over two floors on a ramp you fight it with developers, two floors is all there should be. Commissioner Mead talked about surrounding the square with retail on all four sides. Mr. Kaltsas said that surrounding the square is required. He said that there may be room for one more 15,000 square foot building in downtown.

Mr. Kaltsas said he has town square and to make it bigger with a vista to the lake and to look at a parking ramp on both. Chair Simanton said when looking at a parking ramp it is a two story. He talked about the enclosed ramps that are $12,000 a stall. Mr. Kaltsas said it is 5,000 square feet for the first floor as long as you don’t go underground and the second floor is $15,000 for spaces because the structure goes up. He said when you talk about 75 spaces at $15,000 a space that is over a million dollars. Chair Simanton mentioned getting more tax revenue in here and charging for parking is not going to be a good idea. Commissioner Vogt what happens if you do the underground with it. Mr. Kaltsas said it adds a cost so that the first floor and the second floor are about the same.

Chair Simanton said he wanted to lay this out again. He talked about making the flow back and forth from the east to the west end. He has driven over the bridge three or four times, but he would be interested in knowing what would have to be done to make that work. He said he knows it is a fixed point, but the kink does not create an easy flow between the two points. Mr. Kaltsas said he agrees. He talked about what was presented in 2002. Chair Simanton said he would like to see what that looks like and it may mean that the Notermann building has to come out to create a flow with the two areas. Chair Simanton said that would be a recommendation that should be taken back to the City Council. Commissioner Vogt stated the flow may be important when it comes to developing the area west of downtown.

Mr. Kaltsas talked about the other plan and how the City Council said this plan is different from that plan. The old plan was a conceptual diagram and wasn’t meant to work. There was 250 surface parking, which would not work. Chair Simanton noted that things have changed.

Chair Simanton said he does think Towers Boulevard needs to be 34 feet. He said his concern is the flow going from east to west. If it is too small it will be restricting.

Chair Simanton stated the recommendations from the Planning Commission are as follows:

1. The town square in the middle of downtown and looking at maximizing the size of that as well as making a vista to the lake. This doesn’t take into consideration the current development. Mr. Zweber said everything is a process. He noted the developer understands and she sees the value in it and has seen this. Chair Simanton said just for a point of clarification he does not want just a single trail and should be something significant for the people in. Commissioner Vogt said it may mean the creamery has to disappear and there is two bigger buildings on each side.

2. Parking is the next recommendation. These areas need to be maximized. Double deckers and ramps should be looked at. Commissioner Vogt said if you really want the view of the lake from the park there may not be room to put four buildings there. Mr. Kaltsas said they have gotten smaller in foot print. There are two condos and a third condo with an office floor and a retail floor on the lower level. Commissioner Vogt noted that is different from what they saw. Mr. Kaltsas said the other building is next to the creamery.

3. Flow is the next piece by taking the kink out to have a flow from east to west. Commissioner Vogt said if you are in the park maybe you should see the bridge and see a lane leaving and coming in from that area. Mr. Zweber said the only thing he doesn’t want to do with the flow is make it a 45 mph curb. Chair Simanton said there are other things to do to slow it down such as a roundabout. Commissioner Vogt said to start thinking further down the line and tying it together.

Mr. Kaltsas stated the process is to get the parking square footage done and start to identify the road alignment and the on and off street parking. He said then you have a plat and referred to buying a home with a sales center and he wants to set that up as what they are trying to get to with this. Mr. Kaltsas stated then they would release a feasibility study, which is the engineering component where they start to put design details in. This would start to identify right-of –way and property acquisition. He said there will be things that are moved around during that process and there will be a new set of issues. He talked about the financial piece and understanding what the cost is going to be. Mr. Kaltsas said at the end of all that you have a master plan that shows the bigger picture and how it relates to that other parcel. He said the RFP be at the meeting next Thursday and if they approve that it will go out. There will then be a committee of a group of people that will look at that. He said there will then be a phasing plan and they would like to start phase one in the spring of 2007. Chair Simanton talked about this being the worse case scenario. He said this is an opportunity with a very old town that not many towns have and being able to put in a jewel, which is the town square. Commissioner Vogt said another reason to make the town square bigger is all of the trail traffic with bicycles, walkers and runners that will come to the town and possibly have room for a bathroom facility.

Chair Simanton asked what the timeframe is. Mr. Kaltsas said he is not sure. They need to bring the City Council up to speed. A workshop will be scheduled. Mr. Kaltsas said the Planning Commission has good background and at some point to have them meet with the City Council. Chair Simanton mentioned some timing issues with a 2007 phase one. He said they would be happy to have a joint meeting. Mr. Zweber said the City Council is feeling that this is going on without their knowledge. Mr. Kaltsas said they are going to bring it back again. He is going to start working on what this board recommended and his goal would be to come back as soon as he meets with the City Council.

Mr. Zweber said they need to start the feasibility studies soon. Mr. Kaltsas said they are about three weeks behind.
 

No Councilmember present.
 

A. Communications.

There were none.

B. Other.

Mr. Zweber mentioned the 4^th of July is coming up and that is the first Tuesday of the month. He said to start thinking about either rescheduling that meeting or canceling it. He noted in June they will start posting notices. It should probably be decided by June 6^th. Mr. Zweber stated one of the items he is trying to work on is the Trust Republic Land. They have met with the Marsh Lake Hunt Club about the involvement of the possible acquisition of that as public space. The Marsh Lake Hunt Club committee will be talking about that this month. Mr. Zweber noted so far they have been very receptive and he would like to have someone come talk about their role and how they see things. Mr. Zweber said July is when that would most likely be and that could be done in a workshop.

Mr. Zweber stated there is a joint workshop scheduled for Monday the 22^nd at 6:30 p.m.
 

A motion was made by Mead, seconded by Vogt, to adjourn the meeting at 8:40 p.m. Vote: 4 Ayes, 0 Nays. Motion carried.
 

Respectfully submitted,

Tanya Schmieg
TimeSaver Off Site Secretarial, Inc.